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LDmicro Forum - extension resolution

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extension resolution (by Ilie)
If posible to extension rezolution to analog imput?
Thank you
Mon Nov 2 2009, 14:44:05
(no subject) (by Jonathan Westhues)
No. The resolution of the ADC is determined by the hardware. LDmicro always reports the full hardware resolution, which for all supported devices is 10 bits.

In fact, the bottom few bits are just noise. It would be necessary to average multiple samples in order to get even 10 good bits. There's also integral non-linearity (INL), which introduces a few counts of static error no matter how much you average.
Mon Nov 2 2009, 22:16:27
(no subject) (by Samukelo Shezi)
Roughly, the reliable bits start at which bit?
Tue Nov 3 2009, 03:30:06
(no subject) (by Jonathan Westhues)
It depends on many different factors--for example, the clock speed of the micro, the clock speed chosen for the conversion, the amount of noise on Vdd (or some other reference).

If Vdd isn't horrible, then it's likely that the top seven bits are okay, even after just a single conversion--so probably not worse than 8 counts of noise.

Averaging n times reduces the noise by a factor of sqrt(n), assuming that the noise is uncorrelated. So averaging 32 or 64 samples almost always gets you something like the full 10 bits. A simple average works, though a first-order IIR filter is also easy, and is nicer when considered in the frequency domain.

There's also some static errors (i.e., biases to the mean; so they don't go away if you average). But those are small; for example INL on the 'F887 is +/- 1 count max. By that point the tolerance on your voltage reference is probably more important. Though depending what you're actually trying to measure, it's typical to make a measurement ratiometric, so that it ends up independent of Vref.
Tue Nov 3 2009, 11:29:11
(no subject) (by Samukelo Shezi)
Wow! Thanks Jonathan! I'm wiser now.
Tue Nov 3 2009, 12:28:07
(no subject) (by Ilie)
Thank you
Exist another microcontroler with 16 Biti or 32 biti can be progaming to LDmicro.
Wed Nov 4 2009, 14:16:01
(no subject) (by Samukelo Shezi)
At the moment, no! LDmicro is still dealing with only 8 bit (PIC16XXF..) microcontrollers, with ten bit analog registers. I think I remember Jonathan stated in one of the threads that the back end for the PIC18 is totally different. If I am not mistaken, even though some PIC18s are 16 bit, their analog input registers are still 10 bit (0-1023). What I am wondering if it is possible, is to get a stand-alone ADC that would transmit a 16 bit signal serially or through some other interface to the Pic.
Wed Nov 4 2009, 15:36:49
(no subject) (by Jonathan Westhues)
The PIC18s are all 8 bit processors, same as the PIC16 or AVR. And there's no particular relationship between the ADC resolution and the processor word size. Though all the PIC18 parts that I've seen do have a 10 bit A/D as well.

It's possible to buy standalone A/D converters, with a resolution of 16 bits or more. Though higher-resolution A/D converters tend to be used for better dynamic range or noise, not absolute accuracy. The INL on those converters is disproportionately higher, and the rest of your system is probably worse than even a part in 1000--an 0.1% voltage reference or resistor is already somewhat exotic.

The number of bits that an A/D reports is also not necessarily related to the number of useful bits. There's a standard specification based on the signal to noise ratio as measured in the frequency domain, called ENOB (effective number of bits). This is always less than the resolution; and an A/D that reports more bits may actually have a lower ENOB than one that reports fewer.
Wed Nov 4 2009, 21:50:07
(no subject) (by Samukelo Shezi)
Thanks for intervening. I almost misled poor Ilie. Lol!Ok! Do you know of any specific ADC that has 16 ENOBS?
Wed Nov 4 2009, 22:20:51
(no subject) (by Jonathan Westhues)
That might be simple or hard, depending on the bandwidth required. As the bandwidth goes to zero, you can average ever more and drive the (excess, beyond quantization) noise to zero.

Look at

http://www.analog.com/en/analo...converters/products/index.html .

The AD7194, for example, is a 24 bit A/D. Table 8 of its datasheet gives the ENOB versus bandwidth (which is programmable, by changing parameters of an on-chip filter).
Thu Nov 5 2009, 00:41:18
(no subject) (by Ilie)
THANK YOU
I have a problem that does not speak English.
I work at the factory with plc on 32-bit adjustable resolution of software choice.
I thought if I could make a microcontroller circuit that increase resolution.
I understand from Jonathan exist a circuit , but I would be very isy to understand a sketch .
I have created a working board with 16F877 microcontroller 8 analog digital imput imput and the rest 11 digital outputs,if needed I can give Scheme .
if you can help me with a scheme in which to understand how I could put in the circuit as recommended Jonathan.
I also use a software factory with Ladder and I want to use this software but it can increase the scope and who read to understand and practice how to operate a board he can get created progam
What we have attached take dip trace, www.diptrace.com, and you have the option to import and you will see done and then wiring scheme.
Thu Nov 5 2009, 15:11:31, download attachment Schema.asc
(no subject) (by Samukelo Shezi)
Just to take you back to averaging. The IIR filter is digital, but aren't we talking about an analog signal, before the AD conversion happens?
Thu Nov 5 2009, 23:21:27
(no subject) (by Jonathan Westhues)
The ENOB of the digital signal at the input to the low-pass filter will be lower than the ENOB of the digital signal at the output. It would even be possible for the ENOB of the output to exceed the physical number of A/D bits. Of course, the bandwidth at the output will be lower too.

It doesn't matter that the averaging occurs after the A/D conversion. If the noise that you're trying to reject is not beyond the Nyquist limit for the A/D, then filtering after the A/D converter is actually more effective than filtering before, since a filter before the A/D cannot reject noise introduced by the A/D itself.
Thu Nov 5 2009, 23:41:23
(no subject) (by Samukelo Shezi)
Ok. Thank you very much.
Fri Nov 6 2009, 03:51:59
(no subject) (by Samukelo Shezi)
So, in a DSP chip like the dsPIC (TMSxxx) range. Are these challenges (noise, and low ENOBS) addressed? Is the AD conversion better?
Fri Nov 6 2009, 23:02:47
(no subject) (by Jonathan Westhues)
The TMS... parts are Texas Instruments DSPs. Microchip has the dsPICs. DSPs with integrated A/D converters do tend to have slightly better specs than ordinary micros with A/Ds, though not always.

But there's significant compromises involved in building a low-noise A/D on the same piece of silicon as a big fast digital thing. The best A/D converters tend to be separate ICs, and still require some care to avoid coupled noise from other digital circuits.

The only way to know is to read the datasheets, or make the measurement yourself.
Fri Nov 6 2009, 23:40:50
(no subject) (by Evan Raftery)
Maybe the way to increase analog resolution in the micro would be to frame the areas you want to read via op amps as in Jonathans interface tutorial or if the whole range isrequired then maybe use the digital outputs to switch change resistors on the op amp circuit and build a bigger value that way. Ie by switching the op amp resistors twicw yu could realise 11 bit resolution or doing it 4 times you would get a 12 bit resolution as in PLC's
Sat Nov 7 2009, 00:25:41
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